SUBJECT: NEW AGE FORUM 07-JUN-92 FILE: UFO2963 *********** New Age Forum 07-Jun-92 16:53:12 R1: *SYSTEM*| Switching to Formal Conferences (R1) Joe Balsamo: Hello David/Moderator: Hello Joe Balsamo: I'm starting to feel lonely, Dave, we are the only ones here! David/Moderator: No prblem, Peter Baitz promised he'd be here! Joe Balsamo: Whoops! My Smart Alarms just told me it's time for the UFO | CO!!! David/Moderator: We still got 5 minutes anyway. | And here's Rilla! Joe Balsamo: Hmm...my clock must be fast David/Moderator: I hope you got your suit and tie on, this is a formal CO | you know! Joe Balsamo: Ahh, so it is (starting to feel less lonely already:-) ) | Suit...suit, heck, I've got on my Tux! David/Moderator: I hope Peter makes it alright, he's never been in a CO | before and may have trouble. He using the old command mode way | of doing | things. | Peter be here!!!!!! Joe Balsamo: Well, I can see everyone that just enters the forum on MAC | CIM, so we can always give him instructions | HHello Peter Peter Baitz: Hello Joe Balsamo: Hello Dennis Dennis Mahlmeister/: Hello all, what's happening? David/Moderator: Welcome Peter, gald you could make it! Peter Baitz: I am too! David/Moderator: We have 3 minutes will CO time, so we're waiting. Joe Balsamo: Looks like we are going to have a nice CO today! David/Moderator: Its about time! Dennis Mahlmeister/: Dave, I didn't know there was a CO, saw the crowd | and thought to drop in... ;) | What's the CO on? David/Moderator: Well, heck Welcome anyway! Neil forgot to post the News | flash for me! | The CO is on UFO's! Dennis Mahlmeister/: Oh, ok. David/Moderator: Still interesting I hope? Joe Balsamo: Dennis, we'd really appreciate it if you'd hang with us for | at least a little while Dennis Mahlmeister/: Sure, don't know how long I will be able to hang | around, but will see what's going on. David/Moderator: Good enough, Peter you still out there? Having any | trouble? Dennis Mahlmeister/: I have a friend that swears that there is a room in | her house that people Peter Baitz: New he!I am here. I understand we may talk of the database | also? Dennis Mahlmeister/: have been abducted from by UFO's and when they are | brought back they have... David/Moderator: Yes, and the UFO Shuttle video as well. Dennis Mahlmeister/: a splitting headache and marks on their necks. David/Moderator: Dennis, does you friend of CIS access? | I mean 'have CIS access" Dennis Mahlmeister/: Not usually, but I could go over there one day and | log on from her house... | and let her use my account. She does have the equipment. David/Moderator: It would be interesting to perhaps have them join a CO | of ours, and just tell us about here story. Joe Balsamo: That would be fantastic. Dennis Mahlmeister/: I will see what I can do, she is a very private type | and is worried that if... David/Moderator: If need be, I could arrange a one time, free account for | here to use for a temporary time. Would that be better? Dennis Mahlmeister/: her neighbors found out that they would get violent. | There is a lot of Klan | activity out where she lives. Joe Balsamo: She could remain totally anonymous. David/Moderator: She wouldn't have to use her own name. Dennis Mahlmeister/: Dave, either way would be ok, I have to talk with | her tho to see what happens. Joe Balsamo: Dave, do you think we ought to start, or wait a bit longer | for more to show? David/Moderator: Good enought Dennis, let me know what she says. Are we | all ready to begin? Peter Baitz: !! Joe Balsamo: Yup David/Moderator: Peter, you have something to say? Peter Baitz: TryinTJust trying to get used to this! I'm using DOS | commands | Not you interface, | ok | Who all is out there? | Hello? David/Moderator: We'll still here Joe Balsamo: I think we lost Peter David/Moderator: Peter you still out there? Dennis Mahlmeister/: Nope, Peter is still here User 4 | Hello- I'm back- seem yoYes. Seem to have gotten kicked out. | Can you read my entries? David/Moderator: What happened to your name Peter? User 4 | I do not know. | I see David and Joe. David/Moderator: No problem, I can figure it out! Ok people if we're | ready I'm going to start....anything else? Joe Balsamo: Well, I count four of us here, that may be the group for | today. David/Moderator: Good enough, time to start now.... | First a brief synopsis of the rules.... | In this formal conference I will be the moderator and will keep | track of whose turn it is to speak..... | PLEASE don't interrupt the person speaking until it is your | turn... | when you have a question type a ?, if you have a comment type a | !, | I will then call your name in turn. As you type, please end | each of your lines with ..., so we know that your still talking. | When you have finished talking, at the end of your last line | add GA, so mean Go Head, so we know to continue. | Does everyone understand?...ga Dennis Mahlmeister/: aye User 4 | Yes. GA Joe Balsamo: yup David/Moderator: OK.... | the primary part of this CO is about the UFO database, then we | will discuss the UFO Shuttle video as seen on..... | Hards Copy the other day. | Does everyone have a basic understanding of the UFO database? User 4 | ? David/Moderator: GA Peter User 4 | I read about it briefly in the last CO. Perhaps a 1-liner | would help..., | begin this. GA David/Moderator: OK... | The basic idea here is to design and implement a international | UFO database, using this Forum as its home base... | this database will contain ALL information about UFO research, | i.e. sightings, abductions, theories, work, evidence, alien | contact, | just about everything that can be added...Does that explain | things pretty well? User 4 | ? David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | This would be a down/uploadable info-base for various computers | or | something online.GA David/Moderator: At first it would be a downloadable database system | yes... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: eventually we will hopefully be able to go to an online | system, at least we hope so.... | The only people really uploading to the database would be those | make contributions to the database, and then | only a select few would be able to upload a revised copy, to | keep from having multiple copies of the database.... | sitting out in the File base.... | Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: Thanks...I think that Dave covered it pretty well, but as I | see it, there are two major objectives... | First we need to actually gather data. Design some kind of | form that people can download and fill out in regards to their | sightings... User 4 | ? Joe Balsamo: Secondly, we need to actually come up with a database system | that allows search criteria, reporting, etc. etc. At this stage | of the | game, we are still designing everything... | ust trying to get a solid group of volunteers. GA David/Moderator: If I may add... | we also want to encourage people to upload to us any private | research they themselves may have done.... | Peter > GA User 4 | For the database, is an existing package to be used or are you | doing..., | some program for it like Dataflex , etc. or QBASIC...., C? | GA David/Moderator: Good point... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: We're hashing it out, thats why we're here (hehe), we | NEED to make it available for as many different comptuer types | as possible... | Does anybody have any suggestions? User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Hang on a sec Peter, its Joes' turn, Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I was going to say pretty much what you said. This is only | the 2nd CO ever, so the most important thing is to get the core | group | of solid volunteers... | then we can decide from there. GA David/Moderator: OK Peter > GA User 4 | Didn't mean to stomp on Joe. Most IBM computers with DOS have | BASIC..., | available. Programmers and "normal" people. GA David/Moderator: True... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: but do we really want to program up a private systems of | our own? Then, what about MAC's, and Apples' and so forth? User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I would suggest that we consider using FoxPro. It runs on | both Macs and PCs and we can compile EXEs with it... | so noone really has to have the native language itself. GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | That sounds fine. I am not familiar with Apples. Can they use | ACSII data? GA David/Moderator: OK... Joe Balsamo: Yes User 4 | ! David/Moderator: JOE, you spoke outta turn, nasty nasty! | Peter > GA Joe Balsamo: ...whoops User 4 | So if IBSo if IBM and Apples use ASCII data, even if FoxPro is | not used..., | a max of two programs would need to be written for the two OSs | GA David/Moderator: OK... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: What about the deal of having a comma delimited ASCII | file, then we could include a record layout so that others | could then just import it into there favorite db package.... | Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: Actually, David, I think your idea is valid. IF we | structure the data properly, then people can use whatever | package they want for | analysis. GA David/Moderator: Peter, what do you think of that ideas? GA User 4 | I think this is fine. Otherwise people may dislike "our" | database..., | and resort to their own package anyway. GA David/Moderator: Good point... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: besides I think we're all programmers here, and I don't | know if we could write something for Apples, Ataris's and all | the others. User 4 | ! David/Moderator: It would definetly be a full time job just in | itself.....Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I think we need to concentrate our efforts on the structure, | gathering and verification of the data itself... | this is going to be the bulk of making this a viable project. | GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | I think creating the structure is the best start. Also, side | point..., | Novell Networks for one allow sharing of ASCII between IBM and | Apples. GA David/Moderator: Good point... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: another thing I'd like to add, we must establish a group | of people we can all rely on to do their part,... | Joe and I have pretty much agreed to give whatever time we | have, to doing this thing. Can we count on you to help out | Peter?.... | Joe, a sec, Peter > GA User 4 | Yessir!! | GA David/Moderator: Excellent, Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I was going to suggest that one way we can use to get an | idea of the structure is to analyze any current collections of | data... | such as those held by MUFON, CUFOS, Hopkins, or whomever. From | there, we can use their ideas and meld them with our own to | come up | with a format. GA David/Moderator: Good point... User 4 | ! David/Moderator: but I also think we should start working on our own | format, until, and if, we find anything out from those | people.... | Peter > GA User 4 | I have just (really) recently begun with this UFO stuff. I | have always read... | up, etc... So I am not aware of the various organizations ..., | I have heard of some, but do not really know them nor their | formats for... | investgation and databases. I would look into this. GA David/Moderator: Your not alone.... | All UFO researchers, and organizations, have there own | databases, but the problem is that ordinary people..., | like ourselves, don't have access to them. This db would be | availble to everyone and anyone.... User 4 | ! David/Moderator: but I am not so if these other UFO researchers are going | to be of much help to us! | Peter > GA User 4 | So, most of these organizations would not be willing to work | with CIS..., | or us to import some of their info. GA David/Moderator: I don't know, Joe what do you think? Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: Well, I have not explored it fully yet... User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: I have contacted MUFON, a group I belong to, and have not | heard back from them yet. I have also gotten involved with a | local... | group called ORION that is by invitation only...if I am | accepted into the group, I will see if they can be of help... | they have many members involved in all of the BIG UFO | organizations. GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | There is a upload of 3(?) test files containing addresses of | some pages..., | worth of groups. Perhaps any # of there. Letters, contacts, | etc.GA | Of these... David/Moderator: I have some addresses and phone #'s as well.. | I was contacted by the local MUFON director last night, about a | letter I sent him in regard to this db idea, | he said it was indeed interesting, but also said he wasn't sure | if MUFON would like to really 'contribute to it very much".. So | I don't know.... | Joe, any thoughts > GA Joe Balsamo: This is the problem with these UFO groups... User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: there seems to be a lot of infighting, back biting and | information hiding...Not everyone, but just enough that it | makes this kind | of research very difficult to say the least. GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | Do we have access to government reports of any kind , etc. Just | to start..., | the database. GA David/Moderator: Peter... | we have documents gained from the government through the | Freedom of Infomration Request, and Joe and I both.... | have some extensive data of our own with which we could 'seed' | the database.... | The biggest worry that bother me is all the other Projects I've | seen that have fallen by the wayside becuase of stuff that.... | Joe mentioned before, the back biting and so forth, that is why | I've got the feeling that we should start working.... | on our own system, and then if these other groups want to help, | or contribute, we can always 'modify' our layout a little bit... | I'd just hate to see this thing get tied up in 'Red Tape'... | GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I think that at this time, it might be good to discuss some | goals and try and have a plan of action by our next CO.... User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: So far, the only people we have comitted to do work are the | 3 of us, so I don't know if we should just take the ball and | run or get | more involved, what do you guys think? GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | We will probably break this work up.... Perhaps we can come up | with some | topics and assign some research for next CO. IE. Each topic | ..., | broken into a datastructure. GA David/Moderator: Joe, comments? > GA User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: That sounds fine to me... | do you think we should each come up with a form that might be | useful or what? GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | We could all work on some heading related but seperate and add | them..., | together or all come up with a complete datastructure and | compare notes..., | by uploading each others work. Hmmm. GA David/Moderator: Not a bad idea... User 4 | ! David/Moderator: In fact a pretty good idea, each of us could come up | with his own idea of the structure of the thing, ... | and then we could compare notes. Peter > GA User 4 | Since you two seem to be a little more advanced in this, maybe | we can..., | throw around some ideas for this... make a sketch.GA David/Moderator: Good for me... | Let me give you an idea of my personal database I use at home... User 4 | !! David/Moderator: ................Peter > GA User 4 | I just want to make sure I can get a copy of this for review. GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: I think that Peter's idea is good. We should each come up | with our own database form, upload it or whatever, and then | next CO, we | can synthesize something from that... | ps we should make a gerneral request of the entire forum via | NEWS or whatever and get other ideas as well. GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | I think getting info from others is good to, but a final | date..., | may be necessary to get it moving. We should also have a | general..., | sketch of what we are looking for - maybe an outline of records | and..., | fields. GA David/Moderator: Peter,... | as for getting a copy of this CO, Joe and I are recording it, | and one of us will upload a transcript of it either later | tonight,... | or tomorrow, so you'll be able to download it from the file | section.... | Anyway....Joe comments > GA Joe Balsamo: Well, first off, I think the idea of a deadline is a good | one. It should be a few days before the next CO so we can be | prepared to | discuss the various formats... | ou think we should schedule our next CO? GA David/Moderator: Good idea, do yopu think 2 weeks from now would give us | enough time to compile together some data....anyone > GA User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | Sounds fine - 2 wks. Shall we sketch it out, what you all | think? GA David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: 2 weeks is good for me...and, what, 'couple days before that | the deadline for the submission of ideas for the database | format?... | Perhaps you can get Neil to post this in the proper place. GA David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | 2 weeks is ok for me - let me know the exact date. I was going | to..., | kid Joe he is watching Star Trek or something. GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I was just going to let peter in on my secret...I'm actually | soliciting for contributors to this meeting! GA David/Moderator: Joe is being a biut bothersome to others! | OK.... User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Why don't we say this, I'll act as central point here, | you and Joe, upload and send any messages or files about | this.... | thing directly to me, I will then forward them on to the other | in involved. We can do this via E-mail directly to each.... | other instead of cluttering up the FIle base here...... | Peter > GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | So you would like us to find some ...I am unclear as to how you | will conduct the search for others ideas.GA David/Moderator: First... | I think we're talking about each of us working out his own idea | as to the structure to this database.....Joe > GA User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: David, what I would also suggest is you (being the big | kahuna and all :)) draft a little blurb for Neil to post... | This blurb would basically explain the db idea and ask for | group submissions to your PIN that would be the db description, | the form | if you will. | ga David/Moderator: Good enough............Peter > GA User 4 | Ok. So Joe, myself and David will upload our own data-structure | ideas..., | to David, and this pending post for Neil will allow others to | ..., | upload theirs to David, all due a couple days befor the next | CO..., | at whuich time it will all come together. GA David/Moderator: Yes.... | I will draft a little *blurb* and see if I can talk Neil into | posting into the New Flash, asking each for there ideas on ..... User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: how to basically structure this thing. In the mean | time, you and Joe, will upload your ideas directly to me, via | E-mail... | Peter > GA User 4 | I don't know about u guys, but I hate news blurbs unless they | are really... | interesting looking...maybe because I use DOS and not the | interfaces u ..., | use. It should be really eye attacting. GA David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: Peter makes a good point, perhaps we should ask Neil if | there is any other method of letting users know what's going | on...BTW, | Peter, you may want to d/l CIM, it is a really cool program and | I believe the d/l is free. GA David/Moderator: Peter.... User 4 | ! David/Moderator: CIM is what we use, and it only costs $10.00, then CIS | give you $10.00 free usage, so its basically free. Its makes... | things like this much much easier!... | Peter > GA User 4 | Great! Where do I obtain it...forum.? GA David/Moderator: Joe, where do you get the thing? Joe Balsamo: It is in the CIM forum, I believe, just do GO CIM User 4 | ! David/Moderator: GO CIM, that will at least tell you were to go from | there! | Peter > GA User 4 | Thanks all. Ok. Shall we throw around some basic ideas for the | structure..., | or just do it solo and upload.......or where do we go with this | now.GA David/Moderator: Joe, care to elaborate here....GA Joe Balsamo: Well, I think that we may want to have the basic stuff... | type of encounter, date, time, location, description, number of | witnesses, etc. that should be good for a start... | the more fields we have, the more selective our data inquiries | will be, of course. GA David/Moderator: Also... User 4 | !! David/Moderator: my database system I use has a field that points to a | file name, to obtain more detailed info.... | sometimes 15 or 20 pages worth.... | Peter > GA User 4 | How about C.Encounter type I, II , III etc with varied fields | applying to..., | each. GA *SYSTEM*| Switching to Formal Conferences (R1) David/Moderator: OK .... | I uploaded to Joe, a new classifications system I found, and | enhanced... | that helps to make classifying these much easier, and you can | better taylor it to the type of sighting.... | we will need to include that in the file layout, and I will | send the classification system to you Peter, so you have a | copy..GA User 4 | ok David/Moderator: Joe, comments > GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I believe that file is also in the library, is it not? | Also, the nice thing about that new system is that it also ... | lets one assign a factor of believability to the sighting. GA User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | Ok. I will def. look at the new system. Any suggested reading | for these..., | classification methods from various UFOlogists/groups? GA David/Moderator: Joe, I think this guy is a minded reader!.... | The classification system isn't in the library, but I'll upload | it later.... User 4 | ! David/Moderator: also, about the books, Joe and I have been compling a | must read book list, so you'll have a list as soon as we're | done..... | Peter > GA User 4 | I have also seen - in a report - a page for drawings - sky | drawings..., | or whatever a person can do as part of the report.GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: That is an excellent point! We should consider including | GIFs with the reports. David has a scanner, so he could scan | in any 'hand | drawings'.GA User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | Most IBM compatible scanning software I've seen uses PCX or | TIFF or others.., Joe Balsamo: ! User 4 | like this but not GIF. ! David/Moderator: Peter, my scanning software will alos use GIF, and let | me add.... | that I can scan drawings, sketches, photos, just about | anything, in 256 grey scal colors. Does an excellent job on.... | Playboy centerfolds!........Joe > GA User 4 | ! Joe Balsamo: My only reason for suggesting GIF is because it is CIS's own | format. Theoretically, anyone with CIS can use GIF. GA David/Moderator: Well, I can do GIF so no prblem there.......Peter > GA User 4 | I downloaded GRAPHSHOP so it can handle or covert all of | these...., | No actual problem here. GA David/Moderator: Also.... | I use PhotoFinish by ZSoft, and it will import, convert, save, | load, anything in over 20 different formats so we're set... | I also use OmniPage to OCR text and import it into my word | processor, so we can also use that feature...GA User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | We have a Panasonic scanner at Optus (we develop FACSys) and | use Calera..., | for scanning needs.... so we all use great stuff. GA Joe Balsamo: BRB David/Moderator: Joes gonna check something out, he'll be back in a | sec.... | This ideas of your is wonderfull, I didn't think of it, we | could inlude actual photographs taken from eyewitness | encounters.... | my software also allow me to do some photo-analysis, which | would com ein handy as well....GA User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Peter > GA User 4 | Which sort of leads us to the video... after we tie up the | database ideas.GA David/Moderator: Good point, I wouold like to discuss the video as | well.... User 4 | ! David/Moderator: Do you think we've covered enough on the DB to at least | start working out a format of some kind...Peter > GA Joe Balsamo: ! User 4 | Yes. I will look at the system you recommended and draw on it. | Do you..., | tthink this system is good on its own? GA David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: I was just thinking that we may want to participate in the | paranormal forum discussion on the video...what do you guys | think ga David/Moderator: Joe, bows to me.... | Peter > GA User 4 | Who is doing the paranormal CO? What's the topic(s) ? GA David/Moderator: Joe > GA Joe Balsamo: OK... David/Moderator: Peter.... Joe Balsamo: They are having a discussion on the NASA UFO film that was | shown on hardcopy, it might be interesting for us to get | involved in | their discussion. GA David/Moderator: the paranormal section of the Issues Forum is about to | have a CO on the Shuttle video, Joe and I were just | discussing.... Joe Balsamo: I;m heading over there, c you guys in a bit User 4 | ! David/Moderator: the possiblity of ending this CO and venturing over | there...what do you think......Peter > GA User 4 | Yes. Where is it? | GA | ! David/Moderator: When you exit this forum, GO ISSUES, then select the | Paranormal section, we can meet in the CO.... User 4 | OK David/Moderator: but a word of caution, there are some hard lined | sketptics over there that can get REALLY RUDE, so watch you | back....GA User 4 | See you there. Thanks! Ok. Good CO this one - today. | Shall we say bye? GA David/Moderator: Thanks, we can E-mail each other if you have questions, | or come up with some ideas....otherwise, we'll end this.... | and meet over there....OK User 4 | Ok On my Bye! David/Moderator: Conference officially over,,, bye ********************************************** * THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo * **********************************************